I Don’t Think the Rift Community Wants That….

So, in recent days I have seen an explosion of forum threads where people are making suggestions for Rift.  Some are very good.  While others are very, very bad.  Hey, I like suggestions.  Anything that gets the community talking and the developers listening is a good thing.  But, sometimes people just don’t get it.  There have been a few suggestions made over the last few beta events that are consistently ranked down by the Rift community.  Things that people seem to be overwhelmingly against.  Yet, the same people continue making the same threads.  Over and over again.  It gets maddening when you look on the forums and find the exact same suggestions, posted by the exact same people.  Time and time again.

Let’s take a look at some of these suggestions.

  • Flying Mounts. This one has exploded in recent days, with no less than four separate threads on the subject, most posted by one single individual.  Each thread has been shot down and all went to one-star.  The majority of the Rift community just does not want flying mounts.  At least in the way that WoW implements them.  Arguments against flying mounts include: makes the world too small, takes away from the feeling of a “living world” and deters World PvP.  I agree with all of those arguments.  Flying mounts are not only not wanted but they are not needed.  Telara is not a particularly big world, there is simply no need for flying Mounts.
  • Arenas. I have seen this one pop up a couple of times.  The good ‘ole WoW arenas.  People shot this one down with a frenzy.  Reasons include: don’t want another gear grind, they are too unbalanced, they are just another deterrent to World PvP and they are inherently unbalanced.  Again, I agree with all of these things.  If you want to duel, then duel.  There is no need for an arena system.  Go fight some Defiant (or Guardian, if you happen to be Defiant!).
  • Auto-Face/Stick. This one always seems to come up during the betas.  There always seems to be one or two folks who just have to have auto-face and/or /stick.  Fortunately, the rest of the people shoot the idea down as fast as it can be posted.  In a game in which so much is already pre-determined, by gear, level and spec, do you want the computer controlling one other facet of PvP?  I simply can not understand this at all.  Movement should be an inherent part of PvP and the ability to move better than your opponent should help determine a winner or loser.  Want it in PvE?  Fine.  Keep it out of my PvP.
  • Random Dungeon Finder. This one irritates me to no end.  Fortunately, it seems to irritate the rest of the community just as much.  The Random Dungeon Finder was instrumental in destroying the server community and the open world in WoW.  It completely ripped it apart and what is left is a dead world, with no world PvP and very few players leveling outside of instances.  Rift does not deserve that.  In Rift, the open world is the game. Sure, you have instanced dungeons and instanced raids but the Rifts in the open world are what sits Rift apart from WoW, LotRO and the like.  Why in god’s name would you want to destroy that with a Random Dungeon Finder?

As you can see, most of these ideas are ripped straight out of WoW.  With the exception of auto-face, every single one of them come from WoW as a matter of fact.  I just don’t get it.  I hear Rift called a ‘WoW-clone” on one hand and then, not two seconds later, people make suggestions to make it even more like WoW.  It makes no sense to me.

I just have to be glad that the majority of the Rift community does not want to see any of the above ever implemented.  I also have to be glad that Trion seems to be listening to their players.  Because, if they are, we will never, ever see this stuff in Rift.  Thank God.

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22 Responses

  1. Agreed. Let’s just get the base game out on the live schedule, and get some levels beneath us before we start all the insane discussions about what Rift should or should not have. We have not even seen the entire WORLD, let alone the endgame… All in due time people.

  2. I agree also! Also I was just listening to a podcast in which Scott Hartsman said there would be no arena type games in Rift. He said it was way too difficult to balance around that and they are not making an “e-sport” game. So at least we don’t have to worry about that one.

  3. If I could remove one thing from WoW, it would be player controlled flying mounts. The small number of slightly interesting things that have been done with the technology are dwarfed by the vast amount of content that is trivialized with them. EQ2’s adding these in their next expansion, and I really can’t think of why.

  4. What I fail to understand is why people want to control what everyone else does in a game? Designers implement flying mounts because people like them! They add so many dimensions to game play and design possibilities. It seems people look at flying mount failures in other games and assume the worst. There is certainly a right and a wrong way to implement this. Much of the complaint is over pvp. Everything I read says if your looking for pvp then don’t play Rift as pvp is not its strong point. If designed correctly flying mounts are great. To make everyone grind away at tons of trash to get to a particular mob is ridiculous and if that is the design intent this game will not last long anyway. Many players enjoy some conveniences and will get bored grinding out useless hours fighting unnecessary mobs. For a game that many well known bloggers have labeled not original (massively I’m looking at u) I think they could use any player friendly device to get people interested. Also its very hard to go back to long runs with minimal speed increases for two long. (yes know you get a mount at 20-30) but its not a very fast one. I agree with some of the post on the /stick etc but I think dung finder in wow was genius and don’t think most people in wow skipped cata content. In fact I skipped dung for the most part until max… still others rerolled just to experience the beginning quests.
    I do hope this is not a complete wow clone as I would like to see a fresh world… but I do hope they have learned from wow and other games and build on that. Obviously they will not let out all their tricks at launch but lets hope they have more than they have so far shown!

  5. Well

    A lot I agree with except the flying mounts. Flying mounts would be great. Yah the world is not that big but no one says you have to get a flying mount.

    Bugger off it you dont like it!

    Everything else I agree with. Arenas are about the stupidest thing in existence. You get the right group and its raw pwnage. There is no way t balance it.

    Flying mounts though will be brought to the world of Telara or my name isn’t dingbat…

  6. I wouldn’t mind /stick, which is from Dark Age of Camelot, a game you can hardly accuse of not having solid PvP. The value of /stick is not, as you imply, in allowing an unskilled person to keep up with a skilled person, but in allowing a person with a slower computer to keep facing a person with a faster computer, or to compensate for heavy lag due to large numbers of targets in a small area.

    Is it needed? No. Would it be nice? Maybe. My computer is on the low end of the requirements spectrum, and it was often hard to stay facing people in PvP simply because my fps would drop so low in big battles. Better fps does not equal skill.

    As to the WoW suggestions, no thanks. If those people want WoW, go play WoW? I would like to see them add some sort of group finder tool, but not the random dungeon thing. Just a better way to find people for groups than shouting in general chat 😛

  7. […] just two fundamental issues with the game. The first is, it is too much like WoW. The second is, it’s not enough like WoW. Geez, even Tyler Durden plays […]

  8. […] Brannagar made a very salient post discussing what the community is saying in regard to “what they want” and “what they don’t want”…  Check out the article: I Don’t Think the Rift Community Wants That…. […]

  9. I’ll give up Auto-Face/Stick when the game penalizes circle strafing.

    Have you ever tried running full speed in a circle around an object, while jumping, and try to hit it with a sword or club like weapon with any force or accuracy?

    • Ever tried to shoot a fireball from your fingers? Ever tried to turn someone into a squirrel? Ever tried to use the power of your mind to heal someone after they had their arm chopped off?

      Bet not.

      This is a fantasy game. Trying to introduce mundane “realism” into an argument to attempt to prove a point is ridiculous and just highlights how weak your argument is.

      Moving better and more efficiently than your opponent should be rewarded and not penalized as it would be with auto-face and stick.

      • *sigh* Of course you have to go to that extreme… Ever tried to turn and face someone who is running a circle around you? It’s beyond trivial, especially when you consider that people can run one direction while looking another.

        As other’s have brought up, it’s not just a matter of “moving better”. Internet lag, graphics lag and other issues can have enormous impact on gaming.

        Face it. Circle strafing is stupid and the only people who defend it are the people who rely on it to win because they can’t on a level playing field.

      • Face it. You’re wrong. Luckily, Trion realizes that too and is not putting auto-face in the game.

      • I’m not even asking for realism… just acknowledgment that it’s a stupid mechanic… if moving, -15% to hit chance, -15% to damage… if jumping, -15% to hit chance, -15% to damage… if doing both, the penalties stack.

        Also, if you’re game let’s people walk through each other, then don’t require LOS either… because being able to step through a person to break a spell cast is beyond stupid.

      • Not gonna happen. Trion is smart enough to know it would be a disaster. Wouldn’t mind collision detection but the performance hit is too big.

      • We can go back and forth all day… I don’t think it would be a disaster, and the only people who do are the ones who rely on the tactic to win.

      • I was replying on my phone earlier so I refrained from typing many details, its a bugger trying to reply on a smartphone! Now that I am at home I can go a little deeper into this debate.

        I will start simply by saying this: What you suggested is stupid. No. Its beyond stupid. It is, quite simply, idiotic.

        A -15% to hit chance while moving? -15% to damage? Are you insane? Do you have any inkling what that would end up doing? It would devolve into two people standing completely still and swinging their weapons at each other, over and over again. Do you realize how boring that would be? By both game play and aesthetic standards? I could not imagine a more boring, un-involving combat mechanic.

        I can confidently say that, if put to a vote of MMO players, that 95% or more would agree with me. Even the ones who are for auto-face. That is one of the single dumbest ideas I have ever heard.

        If you want to bring “realism” into it (which I think is a dumb argument anyway in a fantasy game), then we can. Let’s look at boxing. Have you ever seen a boxing match in which the combatants simply walked to the center of the ring, stood there and traded blows? No. They don’t do that. They are constantly moving and, yes, strafing around their opponent. Trying to get to that opening to the side of their opponent. Trying to move to their opponents weak spot.

        Go pop in the movie Braveheart sometime. Yes, I know its not “real” but it is widely acknowledged as a gritty, realistic depiction of medieval combat. Do those armies simply walk to the middle of the battle-field and stand stock still trading sword swings at each other? No. They run full-speed at each other, clash in the middle and then all hell breaks loose. Heck, if you really want to get technical, movement should cause a +15% modifier to damage, not the other way around.

        No one wants to play a game in which the combat is people standing in one spot and trading blows. Even auto-facing proponents don’t want that. I’ve no problem with auto-facing in PvE, though I don’t think it is needed. I have a huge problem with it in PvP. The MMO genre is one in which much is determined not by the skill of the combatants but by some outside factor. Gear, level discrepancy and class balance all play a huge part in the determination of a victor. One of the few things that break that outside influence is the player’s skill at timing (interrupts, stuns etc.) and his skill at movement. I choose not to take away one of those few determining factors by adding another computer controlled balance. The player who can move better, get to his opponents blind side should have a greater chance at winning. Period.

      • Flanking, sure. Charging, sure. Circle strafing, no. Stepping through people to break LOS, no.

        And using boxing, or even real sword fighting as your example is in no way analogous to what we are talking about that people do in MMO combat. You find me an example of any boxing match were one run literally runs circles around the other guy, punching him at full strength. Just one.

        Real combat movement has advantages and disadvantages. Say you take a slash at a guy as you run past him… as you run past, he’s turning. You might hit him, but now your back is exposed. In boxing, you duck to the side and toss a body blow to your opponent’s midsection.. if he’s prepared for it, if he saw your shoulder drop before you moved, you’re new position leaves you open to being punch right in the head.

        The problem with movement is current MMO design is that it is all advantage without disadvantage.

        As for two people standing still fighting being boring… I suppose that all depends on what classes you play, and how well the game transmits player choices to other players. If done well, it can be very strategic, which some people find more exciting than running and button mashing.

      • I don’t need to find an example of that and I was not using it as to be analogous to circle-strafing. I was using it to illustrate the absolute lunacy of trying to put a -15% debuff on to-hit and damage, which was your idiotic suggestion.

        This isn’t real life and no one wants a game that plays like real life. I am pretty well done arguing with you so I will leave it at this:

        Auto-facing is not ever coming to Rift. All the threads asking for it, in both the General, Beta and other places, have been shot down. The vast majority of Rift players actually do want movement in combat. The vast majority do not want to dumb down combat further by adding in a computer controlled crutch. And they absolutely, positively would laugh in your face if you made the -15% suggestion.

        I would encourage you to either give up on this hope or find another game, because it ain’t coming to Rift. Thank God.

  10. Here’s what I think is the problem (not actually playing Rift might make my answer invalid, but I’ve read a lot about it and complaints for, against etc.). Basically people come into Rift (at least at first) and think, “Oh gee, this is just like WoW”. The next thing they think is, “Wow, since it’s just like WoW, EVERYTHING must be just like WoW”. Some time later: “Hey! ____ is not exactly the same as it is in WoW! This game is therefore inferior to WoW! How dare they try to copy WoW and not copy everything!”

  11. […] at Horriftic Intentions, brannagar has posted a bit about what he thinks the community wants.  My first mistake in getting involved in that discussion was that I was sent a link to the post […]

  12. I agree that none of those should be implemented.

    Side note: I am VERY tired of gear grinding. Would love to play an MMO that is NOT focused on gear. Besides the questing and pvp, have many dungeons and each one that can randomize mechanics. None, if very little loot. Just there for a FUN time. Everyone running around, killing, healing, laughing, figuring out clues, monsters jumping out .. woah!! Why can’t companies create a game that is for FUN and NOT GEAR? (besides Sims.. uhg.. because I love to fight!) Why can’t we get gear that levels with us? Why can’t we learn a skill that we can customize the gear? What’s wrong with pink fuzzy bunny feet on shoulders, huh? ok, maybe not everyone likes those, but that’s my point… gear customization.

    Dungeons’ mechanics, level of difficulty should be based upon number of players in group and level of those players. If anything drops off bosses or mobs, then everyone should get something!

    Speaking of skills: If you want a potion, make it. If you want an enchant on your bunny shoulders, learn it through a quest chain, etc. In other words, no more beggers! You have to earn what you get. Certain things harder than others, but you get my drift.

    NO GOLD! NO auction house. For the love of MMO, I’m so tired of auction whores and gold sellers.
    Get gear by downing the rifts, earn tokens, etc.

    No more farming! Herbs / ore should be readily abundant for everyone to use. And it will keep players from hording so much to simply sell. If you need elixers, run out, get some herbs and make them, peroid.

    Get a group of friends together to:
    1. run across the country side, be surprised by sudden attacks
    2. start a war in pvp
    3. enter dungeons that you don’t know what they will spawn or how the interiors will have randomly changed.
    4. get mounts through a series of quests. If you want faster mounts, you have to train them! 🙂 Or the more you use them the higher they’ll jump, faster they’ll run, etc.

    My ideas go on and on, but I’m sure no one is interested. 😦

  13. Great post.

    I agree with all points.

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